Monday, December 1, 2008

The Problem of Isaiah 7:14: The Virgin Birth Prophecy

For the Christian, the Bible is the book that tells them all that they need to know about God, life, the afterlife and the hows and whys of it all. This is why it is so important for so many Christian denominations to establish that the Bible is without error, was preserved by God and inspired by the very Spirit of God as he breathed upon the very authors of the sacred text. For most Protestants and Baptists, for example, the Bible and God are so closely linked that belief in the one is linked to belief in the other. This can be established biblically.

For example, the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and that he did so by his spoken word (… and God said, let there be light). Later in the book of Genesis, Abraham had a question of doubt. God gave an answer and Abraham believed the word of God. As a result, the Bible records that God counted it to him for righteousness and Abraham was made righteous before God by his faith in God's word. As we approach the New Testament, we find that the word of God becomes forever linked with the person of Jesus of Nazareth. In John chapter one, for example, we are told:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

And in verse 14 of the same chapter we read:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And thus the Bible presents Jesus as the word of God in human flesh. Just as righteousness before God was achieved by Abraham by his faith in God's word, in like manner, according to the New Testament, a man is made righteous by his faith in Jesus, the word of God.

From this we can see that both Testaments teach the way to God (through righteousness) is the same: faith in the word of God.

The Bible is proclaimed to be the very word of God. Because God is declared to be perfect and without error, then it would stand to reason that his word would also be perfect and without error. Jesus, the word of God, is declared to be without sin and to be perfect and without error (after all, he is the truth, according to the Bible). God, Jesus and the written word are so closely linked together that it is difficult to talk about the one without talking about the other. It would stand to reason that the Bible, if it is the very word of God, would, in like manner, be perfect, spotless and without error. If the pages of the holy writ could be proven to contain error then what would that say about God himself?

There are those that believe that they do not need to accept all of the Bible. For example, some people accept the moral code of the Bible, but reject the miracles recorded therein. On what grounds do they do this? Human reasoning? Because they do not believe in miracles? What criteria do they use to make such assumptions? How can a mere man weed through what is proposed to be the very words of God and determine what he did and did not say? How can a mere mortal determine, with certainty, what is the word of God and what is not? Wouldn't the one that says a certain passage in the Bible is not from God have to be God (or at least claim to be) in order for them to know for certain that the particular passage was not of God? Or could it be that they have a source outside of the Bible itself that helps them to determine what is and is not from the mouth of God? And if a source, how can it be known if this source is divine or simply another imagination of man?

While I don't claim to know the answers to all of that, I do want to examine the concept of the veracity of the Bible. Whether a person believes in the inerrancy of the Bible or not, all who claim to be Christian rely , to some degree, on the pages of this book to determine what they know about God and how he functions in the affairs of men. This is why it is so important to examine the Scriptures to see if there is any error within. If God is perfect and his word is perfect and Jesus and the word are so closely linked together, then you would expect perfection in his word. If there is error within, then what does that say about God? About Jesus? What does it say about the trust-worthiness of what we read in the pages of the Scriptures themselves?

I would like to begin this study with a common prophecy that most Christians know. We will begin by looking at Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin birth as found in Isaiah 7:14:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

When one reads this verse it seems obvious that this is speaking of Jesus. And the Apostle Matthew would agree:

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. -Matthew 1:22-23

For most people, this is the end of the line. If the Bible says it, that settles it! However, what if Matthew is in error? What if Isaiah 7:14 is not speaking about Jesus at all? Let's go back and examine the verse in Isaiah to see what it is all about.

It would help to put it in a bit of context. If we begin reading in the very first verse of Isaiah chapter seven, then we can find out what is going on.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, [that] Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind. - Isaiah 7:1-2

As can be seen from the verses above, Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel, were planning to go to war against Jerusalem. In those days, the nation of Israel had split into two kingdoms. The northern kingdom was called Israel and the southern, Judah. Jerusalem was the capital city of Judah. As we can see from these verses, the two northern kings had banded together with the purpose of setting out to destroy the capital city of Judah. Ahaz, the current king of Judah, was afraid as he was very much outnumbered. Because God, according to the verses that follow, wanted to calm the fears of Ahaz and let him know that God was with Judah, he sent to Ahaz the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah was to tell Ahaz not to fear:

And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah. - Isaiah 7:4

God went even further and told Isaiah to ask Ahaz to declare a sign that God would perform in order to further help Ahaz know that God was with him (verse 11). Ahaz refused and God, a bit angry, determines to give him a sign of his own choosing:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. - Isaiah 7:14

This is the context of the passage ... or most of it. We will examine what comes after verse 14 a bit further on. Before getting too deeply into the passage, it might be helpful to know when this was all taking place. According to Bible commentaries, Ahaz ruled in Judah in the early 700's B.C. (about 720 +/-). So the events that we are reading about take place about 700 years before Jesus was born. This is important to keep in mind.

This brings up an immediate question: How does Isaiah 7:14 apply to Ahaz if the promise is not to be fulfilled until some 700 years later? In other words, if the sending of Isaiah and the sign given were to comfort the heart of Ahaz because of the enemy that was about to attack him, how could a prophecy about someone that would be born 700 years later accomplish this? Please keep this in mind as we examine the passage in context a bit further.

One thing that is interesting is that many will stop at verse 14 and do not even think about the verses that follow. However, verse 14 is not in a vacuum. In fact, one vital rule of interpreting Scripture is context. It is imperative that the student of the Bible examine any passage within the context in which it was written. And, yet, many seem to violate this principle when it comes to Isaiah 7:14. Could this be because an honest evaluation of the passage would show that Matthew was wrong and the passage does not apply to Jesus of Nazareth? We shall see.

Let's begin by adding verses 15 and 16 onto verse 14:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

A simple and common reading of the passage would lead one to believe that the "he" and "the child" of verses 15 and 16 would be the same child that was said to be born of a virgin in verse 14. To put the verse in my own words, it could read like this:

Therefore the Lord will give you a sign: Pay attention! A virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and will call his name Immanuel. This child will eat butter and honey in order that he will be able to refuse evil and choose good. Before this child is old enough to know to refuse evil and choose good, the two kings that threaten you, Pekah and Rezin, will no longer be a problem.

Yes, I took liberty with the wording and, no, this is not a translation from the Hebrew in which Isaiah was originally written. The point here is that the virgin born child of verse 14 is the child that is spoken of in verses 15 and 16. Now you may be asking yourself, "Who cares?" Here is the reason we should care: According to this verse, the sign that God gave to Ahaz was to be fulfilled in Ahaz's lifetime. The child would still be an infant, not able to discern either good from evil, when the two kings that threatened Ahaz were removed from their thrones. In fact, according to historians, these two kings were no longer a threat within two years. Therefore, this baby had to have been born in that time frame ... not 700+ years later. This passage could not be talking about Jesus. And that is not the only proof.

Before moving on to some other points about Isaiah 7:14, let's examine how some Christians get around this theological knot. Some believe in what is called a double or dual fulfillment of prophecy. The idea here is that in order to prove a prophet true there must be an immediate fulfillment of the prophecy, but that the final fulfillment would be in the future at some point. Therefore, there would have been a child born in Ahaz's day as a sign to him, but the ultimate fulfillment would be found when Jesus of Nazareth was born. For people that adhere to this there are a multitude of problems.

Verse 14 is states that the child would be born of a virgin. If double fulfillment is true, then Jesus would not have been the only virgin born child and that would throw some of his credentials out the window, wouldn't it? If double fulfillment were true, then the child born in Ahaz's day would also have been named Immanuel, God with us. Therefore, there would have been another besides Jesus that shared this title. In other words, if double fulfillment were the solution, then Jesus is not a unique entity because there was another just like him born 700 years earlier.

Many reject double fulfillment for this verse and try to tackle this another way. They say that verses 15 and 16 do not apply to the child of verse 14 at all ... that another child is in view. As if the prophet had said:

Behold, a virgin will conceive and bear a son and call his name Immanuel. But this child that you see here (and not the virgin born one that I had just mentioned earlier) will still be an infant when those two kings are gone from their thrones!

While this is an interesting theory, there is no evidence within the text itself that another child is in view. The original language in which the passage was written, Hebrew, also makes it clear that the "he" and "child" of verses 15 and 16 are in fact the same child of verse 14. So this theory goes down in flames as well.

Others try to tackle this problem in another way. They say that the sign was not to Ahaz at all. After all, the king had rejected the sign (see verse 12). They say that the sign was for the house of David (verse 13). According to this theory, the sign would occur to someone in the lineage of David and therefore it was not a sign particularly to Ahaz himself. Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Joseph, his adoptive father, were both of the house of David (according to some Bible scholars) and, therefore, the virgin birth of Jesus would have been a sign to them. While this may be the most logical way to attempt to resolve the problems of Isaiah 7:14 being a prophecy about Jesus, it fails in several places. The first place that it fails is that, once again, the child was to still be an infant before the two kings that threatened Ahaz were taken care of. Since these events predate Jesus' birth by 700+ years, then this sign could not have been to some distant descendent of David's lineage. Again, the main reason that God had sent Isaiah to Ahaz was to comfort his heart concerning the two kings that were coming against him. But the best evidence against this passage being about the birth of Jesus is in verse 14 itself. Let's take a look at it.

The passage says that a virgin will conceive and bear a son. The Hebrew word used for virgin here is almah. However, the common Hebrew word for virgin is betullah. A study of the word almah will reveal that this word can refer to both a virgin and one that is not a virgin. But it always refers to a young woman or a maiden. This is why the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (1909) translated Isaiah 7:14 and replaced the word virgin with the word young woman. In fact, all of the Hebrew (or Jewish) translations use the term young women (or something similar) and none use virgin. Even many of the Christian translations use young woman. If this is the case, then this passage is not talking about a virgin birth at all, but that a young lady would bring forth a child.

The next point to consider is where it says that the mother would name her child Immanuel. When Mary, the mother of Jesus, gave birth to her child, she name him Jesus and not Immanuel. What is up with that? The prophecy seems pretty explicit that the child's name would be Immanuel. Some hold that the Hebrew concept of name is more in line with a title. As such, the term Immanuel would be a title and not the name by which Jesus would be called. However, it is interesting that Jesus is never called Immanuel at all within the New Testament.

Let's sum this up:

1 - The child of Isaiah 7:14 was to be born of a young woman (an almah)
2 - The child of Isaiah 7:14 was to be named Immanuel (not Jesus)
3 - The child of Isaiah 7:14 was to be born and still be an infant before the two kings, Pekah and Rezin, were removed from being a threat to Ahaz, king of Judah

Jesus was born of a young woman, but then again, so are most people on planet earth. Nothing special there. However, the New Testament (and Matthew in particular) says he was born of a virgin. The New Testament was written in Greek and the Greek word used in Matthew is unmistakably the word for virgin. Therefore the New Testament insists on the virgin birth. However, as we have seen from the Hebrew Old Testament, it does not. Where did Matthew get the idea? Possibly from the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the Old Testament written about 200 years before the birth of Christ. Now some may say that the fact that the Septuagint used the Greek word for virgin in Isaiah 7:14 is proof enough. Fine. If the Septuagint becomes the standard then let's accept the rest of what it says as well. It is well known among scholars that the Septuagint is a poor translation that takes many liberties in its translations. Would it not be easy to assume that they did the same with Isaiah 7:14? In other words, if your proof is from the Septuagint, then you are on shaky ground.

Another point is that Jesus was not named Immanuel by his mother, Mary, though the Bible did claim him to be God with us (which is the meaning of Immanuel). But was not the Isaiah 7:14 passage explicit? Was not the child to be called Immanuel? Do we ever see anyone calling Jesus Immanuel in the New Testament? How then does Jesus fulfill the Isaiah prophecy then?

The main problem is that Jesus was born some 700+ years too late to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. Again, verses 15 and 16 state that the child would still be an infant when the two kings would be done away with. This occurred within two years or so from when Isaiah came to Ahaz the king. Therefore the child spoken of by Isaiah would have to have been born within that two year time frame some 700 years before Jesus.

My conclusion:

Matthew got it wrong. And therefore, there was no virgin birth. Thus, Jesus is nothing special as his birth was no different than any other man who is born into this world. His mother named him Jesus and not Immanuel. Therefore Jesus could not be the one spoken of in Isaiah 7:14. The sign was both to the house of David and to Ahaz. The child of Isaiah 7:14 was to be born before the two kings that threatened Ahaz were no more. Therefore, Jesus came 700 years too late! But that doesn't surprise me. The Bible says that Jesus is coming again soon and devout Christians have been waiting for almost 2000 years.

6 comments:

Fun In Fitness said...

You have to have a great intellect and heart to write something like Scrutinizing Scripture. I only read the first 15 paragraphs but will probably need to come back and read the rest in the future.

I recently posted an article on my blog entitled Why Christian Bleepings Hit the Fan that also asks how sacred is the modern Bible and which has links to Dan Silverman and Dan's story. And it also includes brief quotes from a couple of other Bible scholars.

My feeling is the Bible has lost most of its veracity but Jesus, as a human person did perform divine miracles and was born and lived around 2000 years ago. I feel His miracles like walking on water and parting the Red Sea, and rising from the dead happened. But the core Christian belief that Jesus suffered incredible pain to pay for His believer's wrongdoing is absolutely ridiculous and is therefore the main reason Christians are losing faith. It is also an indication of how far off the rest of the Bible is.

And my only credential for that feeling is an innocent (without much Bible study and zilch contact with any Billy Graham middlemen or other Christians) close living relationship with Jesus in my heart (just Jesus and me).

I would be keenly interested, if you are interested to tell me with a comment, how you feel, pro or con, about either or both Christianity articles on my blog.

RSM said...

I’m trying to understand your goal, and also your position, for Scrutinizing Scripture. In the intro at the side of the page you talk about a “proper hermeneutic.” You also talk about “comparing scripture with scripture.” The context in which you say this, it seems you think that “comparing scripture with scripture” is the proper way of doing hermeneutics. In what tradition did you learn that method? Can you name any scholars whose work I could look up to better understand?

Another question concerns your term in the Dec. 1 entry, first paragraph, “Protestants and Baptists.” I’ve never heard it stated that way. What do you mean by “Protestants” if you list Baptists separately?

You ask: This is why it is so important to examine the Scriptures to see if there is any error within. If God is perfect and his word is perfect and Jesus and the word are so closely linked together, then you would expect perfection in his word. If there is error within, then what does that say about God? About Jesus? What does it say about the trust-worthiness of what we read in the pages of the Scriptures themselves?

Are those rhetorical questions or do you want answers? If you move beyond the fundamentalist Christian circles you will find devout Christians who do not believe in the inerrant infallible inspired Word of God doctrine, but who would probably be willing to die for their faith all the same. Admittedly, I really don’t know where they stand on the issue of martyrdom but I know they take their faith very seriously. Obviously, there are answers to your questions if you want to hear about them.

Re Isaiah 7. In the Evangelical Lutheran seminary where I did my MA degree in theology, more than one professor taught that the virgin birth was based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew into the Greek. If I remember correctly, for one assignment we had to write a short paper on who we thought the child was in that chapter, and why we thought so. We used the HarperCollins Study Bible, NRSV. I could find no reason to think other than that the prophecy was made as a consolation for King Ahaz, and that the child would be born within a year or two from the time the prophet was speaking. Verse 15 says, “He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.” The footnote for V. 15 says “Curds and honey were choice foods for a newly weaned child, but hard to obtain in a city under siege.” The other footnotes also point to the same interpretation, not to mention the text itself.

Freedom_of_Mind said...

Hello Sarah! Thanks for your comments here. I am sorry it has taken so long for me to respond. As you can imagine, I am very busy with many things.

Among both Protestants and Baptists it is common to "compare Scripture with Scripture" to discover what is being taught by the Bible. The concept is that the best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible itself. This is an old creed that can be found in many of the doctrinal statements of the church going back to at least the 1600's and earlier. Just about any Protestant and Baptist Bible college will teach this. Look for books from Moody Bible College, Dallas Theological Seminary, Masters College and more.

You ask why I separated Baptists from Protestants and there is a good reason for this: most Baptists do not consider themselves Protestants. The Protestants were those that "protested" against the Catholic Church and wanted to come out from under the Catholic umbrella. Many Baptists believe that they were never under the Catholics and that their line can be traced back to many ancient believers that even pre-date Catholicism. In some Baptist circles this is known as the "Trail of Blood", which is so named for the trail of persecution against "true believers" from the time of Christ until today.

The questions about the Bible and God that I ask in my introduction are rhetorical and designed to make someone think (hopefully). If the people I am talking to take the Bible literally and yet that same book shows a God who is flawed, then what does that do to their belief? Will such a believer try to ignore what is in the Bible or face it honestly and intellectually?

I agree that the Isaiah 7:14 passage is speaking of a child born in Ahaz's day. However, Matthew disagrees with you and I in his Gospel. He states that what was written in Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled in Christ and quotes the verse verbatim. This is an example of comparing Scripture with Scripture. Matthew makes a claim and so I compared the claim of Matthew with the source (that which was originally written in Isaiah).

I hope this helps.

Freedom_of_Mind said...

Hello Dhanamjaya! Thank you for your comments!

You state: My feeling is the Bible has lost most of its veracity but Jesus, as a human person did perform divine miracles ...

This is an interesting statement. What you have done is divorced Jesus from the Bible, the only real source we have on him, and placed him in the realm of your own personal feelings. Your feelings are your feelings and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the rest of mankind cannot base their knowledge of what is true on your feelings or beliefs, can they? Christianity has long been called the religion of the Book and its adherents the people of the Book. That is because the faith is supposedly based on the Book and is not supposed to be based on someone's feelings or thoughts.

In your comments you state some of the miracles you believe he had accomplished, such as walking on the water and parting the Red Sea. However, we would never know about these supposed events if it were not for the Bible. In fact, apart from the Bible we would not even know about Jesus at all. The relationship you state you have with Jesus would not exist if there were not a Bible. Whatever you feel in your heart you would have attributed to someone or something else had there never been a Bible.

Please understand: my comments here are not intended to offend. I am just trying to reason through what you have written.

RSM said...

Finally I remembered to check back when I was online. I would think of it when I was nowhere near a computer....

Re your response to Dhanamjaya that without the Bible we would not know about Jesus. Obviously, that statement needs some qualifications. The ancient Gnostics wrote just as much about Jesus as did the orthodox Christians. For starters, see "Nag Hammadi Library in English," edited by James M. Robinson et al. You can find it if you type "Nag Hammadi Library" into amazon.com. The early Church Fathers also write about Jesus. It was from them that we got significant passages of Gnostic texts prior to the finds of recent centuries. All this to say that extra-biblical references to Jesus exist.

However, no "disinterested party" proofs of him have yet been found. I did find a footnote in an Anti-Nicene Father book stating that records of his hearing before Pilate were destroyed earlier than the Romans normally destroyed records because of the very many demands to see them, or something to that effect. That footnote was written at least a century ago by Christian scholars, if I remember correctly, so I don't know how accurate it would be considered today. Possibly I can find it if needed.

About the child in Isa. 7:14. I am fully aware that Matthew--and the whole of Christendom--disagree with me. Well, by now the more liberal churches acknowledge the mistake, which would include the people who put together the footnotes for the HarperCollins Study Bible. It was a Christian professor of Old Testament who taught me about this error. I asked her in the privacy of her office how she can retain her faith in light of this error. Unfortunately, I do not remember her answer. It was not very straight-forward and I did not understand it.

Re "compare scripture with scripture" you said:

Among both Protestants and Baptists it is common to "compare Scripture with Scripture" to discover what is being taught by the Bible. The concept is that the best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible itself. This is an old creed that can be found in many of the doctrinal statements of the church going back to at least the 1600's and earlier. Just about any Protestant and Baptist Bible college will teach this. Look for books from Moody Bible College, Dallas Theological Seminary, Masters College and more.

Thank you for explaining. I knew about all those schools except Masters College so I looked it up. Your definition for "Protestants" would of necessity include Martin Luther and the Lutherans. Yet the schools you list are not Lutheran so far as I know. Possibly it includes fundamentalist Lutheran such as Missouri Synod, but not mainline educators.

Not to denigrate these schools because I'm sure they're good at what they do. But they do not give a mainline education. A PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary, for example, is not the same quality as one from such a place as Toronto School of Theology or Harvard Divinity School.

The fundamentalist schools reject use of the scientific method when it comes to hermeneutics and higher biblical criticism. That's a major part of what caused the rift between fundamentalist and liberal Christianity around 1870. The other item was Darwin's publication of "Origin of the Species" in 1859. It seems the theologians in the United States did not become aware of Darwin's book until after the end of the American Civil War (1861–1865); I assume they were preoccupied with that.

This rift in between conservative and liberal Christians that occurred around 1870 may not have been evident in the general population until the early decades of the twentieth century, but it was very evident in academia and among the clergy long before that. I can send you a copy of my thesis as email attachment if you're interested in sources, or in the case that you want to do more in depth research on this.

In the course I took on the history of hermeneutics, we went all the way back to the Jewish scholar Hillel and a colleague who predate the Christians if I remember correctly. The 1600s were actually considered to be quite recent history in comparison.

Nowhere did I see or hear anything about comparing Scripture with Scripture. Of course, I wasn't training for the ministry. The program I was in was purely academic. All the same, isn't "comparing scripture with scripture" something against which the Bible itself warns? There's this verse somewhere about "line upon line, precept upon precept." The connotations are negative.

I realize I come from a very different tradition than you do. Maybe I'm coming on too strongly. "Scrutinizing Scripture" and talking theology has been a lifelong passion of mine and I can get quite involved if I have a dialogue partner. I'm not sure if this is what you were counting on...

~Ruby

Unknown said...

Dhanamjaya wrote: "My feeling is the Bible has lost most of its veracity but Jesus, as a human person did perform divine miracles and was born and lived around 2000 years ago. I feel His miracles like walking on water and parting the Red Sea, and rising from the dead happened. But the core Christian belief that Jesus suffered incredible pain to pay for His believer's wrongdoing is absolutely ridiculous and is therefore the main reason Christians are losing faith. It is also an indication of how far off the rest of the Bible is."

Oh, twaddle.

Actually, the Gospels are totally ridiculous. Overlooking the fact that Jesus is not reputed to have parted the Red Sea (that was Moses), and that there is not one single bit of contemporaneous extra-biblical corroboration of ANY of the Jesus story... the gospels are not a history of anything.

The gospels are a series of vignettes that contain virtually all the elements of the suffering-hero-king mythical archetype. Impregnated by god.spirit... virgin birth... shepherds and kings paying homage... heavenly signs... attempts to kill the infant... precocious wisdom as a child... baptism... posse of 12 (signs of the Zodiac)... casting out demons... healing the sick, blind and lame... raising the dead... miscellaneous magic tricks (like walking on water)... sacred meal with the posse... unjustly accused... unjustly tormented and executed... raises from the dead after 3-days... putzes around for a while... sucked up bodily into heaven (right up there on the other side of the sky). These themes appear over and over and over again in pagan god-stories that precede the 'Jesus' story by hundreds (in some cases, thousands) of years.

OK... now take these well-known (formulaic) archtypal 'god-man' story elements... 'Judeize' them by recasting them in 'modern' (1st century) Palestine... sprinkle in a few ACTUAL historical figures... pore through scripture and make a list of suitable 'Messiah' prophecies, weave them into the script and show them being 'fulfilled'... dig up some bon mots from 'modern' Greek cynic and stoic philosophies, and put them in Jesus' mouth... whip a little midrash on it... viola... a new, 'modern' Jewish 'salvation' cult.

If you bother to add up all the 'Jesus-time' accounted for in the gospels, it works out to no more than 3-weeks... a series of vignettes... episodes. Buck Rogers in the 1st century.

So... all the other times these mythical elements occur in the religious lore of OTHER cultures, they are mythical... NOT true. But in the case of Jesus... they ARE true.

Yeah. Right.

Early christ-cult apologists were well aware of (and apparently embarrassed by) all the striking 'similarities' between their christ and previously 'existing' gods, demigods and god-men... and this is precisely what made it necessary for early christ-cultists to invent a new theological job-description... 'apologist'... i.e., professional liar and excuse-maker. Today, we call them LFJs™ (Liars For Jesus).

Tertullian (and Justin Martyr too, I think) explained these peculiar similarities via 'diabolical mimicry' (a.k.a. 'plagiarism by anticipation')... the idea that Satan KNEW that Jesus was coming, and KNEW all about those bits (above) that would define his life... and so in the PAST, he had arranged for all of those theme elements to appear in man's religions hundreds of years AHEAD of the arrival of Jesus, so that people would notice the similarities, sowing suspicion and casting doubt upon the 'truth' and authenticity of Jesus as the 'Messiah'. So... if you thought that Jesus was bogus just because you saw that he was pretty much the same sort of guy, doing the same things as the central figures in all of them thar pagan mystery cults... well, by golly, you were just being deceived by Satan, and falling for his old tricks. You needed to ignore all that, forget it, and just BELIEVE.

Invisible, magical, all-powerful, supernatural sky-fairies?... miracle after miracle after miracle?... prophecy after prophecy after prophecy?... or pure, unadulterated horseshit?

I think I'll have to go with horseshit... and it's not even ORIGINAL horseshit.